Second In-Class Thread: May 8th: Place-Making, i.e. the Bar, the Institution, and the Space Between

What are your questions for our second class? Share them here or via Twitter with the hashtag #CLAGSqNY. For more on tonight’s class, read Second Pre-Class Thread: May 8th: Place-Making, i.e. the Bar, the Institution, and the Space Between.

Class begins at 6:30pm US EST today.

One thought on “Second In-Class Thread: May 8th: Place-Making, i.e. the Bar, the Institution, and the Space Between

  1. Jen Jack Gieseking Post author

    Hereโ€™s a transcript of the chat history (on the live stream video from the class). Keep the conversation going here by adding your comments below!

    [18:36:53] Hi class – Rio
    [18:38:39] Hi! Kalle Westerling here again this week! I am not in your picture but sitting next to the camera, but Jasmina Sinanovic is. We both work for the CLAGS – The Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies, the organization behind this amazing event ๐Ÿ™‚
    [18:38:51]
    Feel free to let me know any questions you have for the group, and we’ll open up for those questions later on.
    [18:39:12]
    Also, the class has a hashtag on Twitter: #CLAGSqNY where you can tweet questions and comments!
    [18:39:47] hi!
    [18:39:58] @meganbigelow: hi everyone !
    [18:45:44]
    @meganbigelow yes, the bradley manning stuff, SO important, lots to think through with his case, thinking of queer embodiment/homonationalism
    [18:53:38]
    Hi Susan Diane here Re: Bradley Manning -the institutionalization and corporatization of PRIDE seems to mean any anti-estbalishment politics comes 2nd- we have that problem in TO and various stakeholders not wanting the Queers against Israeli in the PRIDE- talking of pulling funding etc.
    [18:54:32]
    Opps Queers Against Israeli Apartheid
    [18:54:58]
    @meganbigelow re: this discussion of the two different films about ACT up, there is some discussion of this in this interview with sarah schulman. http://www.e-flux.com/journal/the-defiant-prose-of-sarah-schulman/
    [18:55:27]
    David Carter’s book is pretty definitive on Stonewall.
    [18:55:50]
    @meganbigelow from the interview “If AIDS activism is historicized as the activities of white individuals cooperating with pharmaceutical machines, then not only will more lies be in place, but communities receiving this information will be deceived about how political transformation actually works. Itโ€™s a crippling piece of propaganda.”
    [18:58:03]
    @jarcastillo Thank you for the interview @meganbigelow
    [18:58:36]
    The archived gay magazines at the NYPL are incredible resources for historic site specific information.
    [18:59:11]
    [LD – @blackandredeye] in the same vein, just makes me think how if queer history is historicized by activities of gay and lesbian folks cooperating with the police/politicians then….
    [18:59:37]
    @meganbigelow @jarcastillo you’re welcome, the whole current issue (44) of eflux is about contemporary queerness, just starting to read thru it
    [18:59:43] We have a free screening and discussion with the documentarians of United in Anger this Friday: http://on.fb.me/11G7jNE.
    [19:00:26] Thanks Megan!
    [19:00:30]
    LD
    [19:01:08]
    @meganbigelow LD, absolutely, there is SO much to unpack there about power dynamics, embodiment of power, dirent internalization of state power
    [19:01:19]
    oops, direct*
    [19:01:42]
    @meganbigelow excited about the screening this friday!
    [19:03:35]
    I am tweeting! @jennadanchuk
    [19:04:11]
    The lesbian avengers created the dyke march and it spread to dyke marches every year in cities all over the US &
    [19:04:16]
    canada
    [19:04:54] Thanks for participating in both conversations here and on Twitter. Where are you all from?
    [19:06:52]
    I think related to the conversation right now. violence in midtown during daytime just this past weekend http://on.fb.me/ZQu9my.
    [19:07:01] @jarcastillo, you pose an important question @jennadanchuk regarding our goals as queer activists (and even the politics of same-sex marriage).
    [19:12:16]
    Thanks Karl for the link
    [19:14:32]
    yes the cushy thing- I think that the gay marriage thing is seen as the last stop for the white gay male groups who are employed. Every thing is good now. Not so for those without the white male middle and upper class privilege.
    [19:16:35]
    @jarcastillo I think that perhaps the issue of immigration reform occurring as both general support (public opinion) and state legislation for same-sex marriage is increasing is a good way to complicate the disparity within our queer community and those goals we are seeking to achieve.
    [19:17:44]
    I really appreciate this conversation; I am currently doing research on Stonewall! This is wonderful!
    [19:18:15]
    LD – I’m wondering how people feel that the marketing of something like the NYC gay pride parade has become totally detached from its origins in a way that contributes, in the end, to homonormativity in a way that alienates a lot of queer folks
    [19:20:19]
    @meganbigelow yes LD, agree
    [19:20:36] Don’t forget to like CLAGS on Facebook so you get more updates about events such as this, but also so you suggest other events that you would be interested in happening! http://on.fb.me/15aqEeT Please be in touch! We would love to host more events in the Fall!
    [19:21:45] @jarcastillo – LD I think something as “simple” (seemingly simple) as the order of when people march relates to this detachment that you speak of. When I’ve been to NYC gay pride parade it seems like the more “political” (activists) groups tend to get lost between the go-go boys and the big eye candy being presented…. Not that there is anything wrong with eye-candy, but I’m troubled by how these very important members of the parade should also be given a “louder” platform and as an audience we should be just as excited and supportive of these other groups.
    [19:23:50]
    LD – agreed, but I think those folks do host other more political marches, such as the dyke march, that are not as widely attended because they’re not more of a party and aren’t connected to as wide a group. So it shows you what a wider public prioritizes…maybe.
    [19:26:23]
    “How much the making of place is tied to police oppression”
    [19:26:38]
    @jarcastillo, I think LD was the one that used the word “marketing” which is key in understanding the perception and audiene
    [19:27:29]
    it attracts, a march that has the funding (sponsorship) of big companies tends to get more publicized
    [19:28:35] Anyone want me to say something to the room? Just let me or Jasmina know.
    [19:34:18] not Hulu!!!
    [19:34:37]
    I missed that about Hulu… who backs it?
    [19:34:44]
    HRC
    [19:34:48]
    ahhh
    [19:35:36]
    @meganbigelow for the room: i’d like to say that all of this embodiment discussion makes me think of dean spade’s work and how bodies (cis, trans, queer, etc) are produced as political subjects and how subject to everyday regulation any body is, but especially a marginalized body, and how bodily privilege plays into everyday passings, privileges, and movement within spaces
    [19:35:36]
    hrc = cylons
    [19:35:59]
    no, cylons are so much more interesting and complicated! cyborgs are queer
    [19:36:35]
    @meganbigelow this interview especially, with spade, speaks about trans bodies http://www.deanspade.net/2012/12/23/new-videos-and-a-new-syllabus/
    [19:38:32]
    agreed, cyborgs
    [19:39:41]
    @jarcastillo, Thank you @meganbigelow for interview link
    [19:40:42]
    @meganbigelow you’re welcome, it’s an excellent interview, he really breaks it right down
    [19:40:53]
    LD – you can have intersectionality without splintering when everyone is actually committed to thinking in intersectional or at least multi-faceted ways. Active listening, etc.
    [19:42:41]
    @meganbigelow yes, my queer (college) students sometimes feel isolated as well, we talk about embodiment and passing and how do my queer students find each other
    [19:46:33]
    We cannot talk about Stonewall without mentioning Marsha P. Johnson!
    [19:48:01]
    LD – I think to me that if someone say identifies as a lesbian, but also queer, it means they’re probably thinking about a lot more in their world, and the world at large, than the right to get married. So if those sorts of terms are causing divisions then I’m kinda all for it?
    [19:54:34]
    @meganbigelow agreed, LD,
    [19:55:24]
    Kate here (I can’t log in because I’m not a CUNY student). Observation: I have yet to see sex workers represented at a Pride Fest. Are they visible at NYC’s Pride?
    [19:56:28]
    @jarcastillo, I know the group has touched on this but was wondering what their thoughts were on this: Can we bridge the commercialized pride parades with the more protest-oriented marches such as Dyke March?
    [19:56:44]
    (general question if you can fit in)
    [19:59:01]
    @jarcastillo, Kate that is a great point regarding the invisibility of sex workers in part because people tend to see them as victims and therefore ignore them as members of our community. Side note, I’m working on the idea that there can be agency within sex labor (thinking particularly in the Caribbean context)
    [20:04:47]
    (Kate) I’m a stripper. Just graduated from the University of Missouri’s Theatre & Performance Studies MA program and I assure you that I do have agency. By no means is my experience universal, but I have a problem with the assumption in popular discourse that sex workers don’t have agency. Here, I should say that sex work is not the same as trafficking (often lumped together). Sorry, this is off topic but I just wanted to share my thoughts on that.
    [20:06:54]
    LD – I’m a New Yorker and just wanted to chime in that I haven’t seen sex workers openly included or discussed in the mainstream gay pride parade though there are definitely groups here that look at the connection between queer communities and sex work.
    [20:09:05]
    @jarcastillo, Kate excellent points. Sex labor (and I’m also thinking escort services, strippers, erotic massages, prostitution) is not trafficking and we also need to be critical of this. I know its off topic now with what the main room is discussing but I’d like to discuss this further. I think that when people tend to victimize sexual labor they strip (pun intended) any sense of agency.
    [20:09:21]
    (Kate) and I feel that sex work can be very queer, even in a “gentleman’s club” with women dancers (we piss off the Moral Majority, too, damn it!!). I would like to see more visibility of sex workers at LGBTQ events including Pride.
    [20:10:08]
    If you would like to discuss further, my email is katewintz@gmail.com
    [20:10:58]
    Kate – I agree!
    [20:11:04]
    @jarcastillo – I completely agree with you regarding sex work being very queer! But the problem is that even with certain LGBTQ communities we are trying to normalize (dare I say sanitize our communities) and tell the majority “look we are just like you, we come in peace and mean no harm”
    [20:11:08]
    (from @jennadanchuk)
    [20:13:52]
    @jarcastillo, Kate are you on twitter too?
    [20:14:07] @jarcastillo, your question was just asked. I hope you hear the answer now ๐Ÿ™‚
    [20:14:56]
    @Kate: you want me to bring your sex work question to the seminar?
    [20:15:09] (Kate) Personal anecdote: I worked for Planned Parenthood as a sex educator. Did an outreach at Omaha Pride and mentioned my 7″ inch heels. Someone who has a problem with SWers, knew that this was a reference to being a stripper, and complained to HQ. I was fired for this….for referencing being a stripper at Pride while wearing a PP badge. I know this is off topic from what is being discussed, but what I’m saying is that SWers are a marginalized group within the LGBTQ community, even at a Pride event that is supposed to be “inclusive.”
    [20:15:29]
    My twitter: @simoneboheme
    [20:16:32]
    The challenge with any Pride, specifically for NYC Pride, is you’re dealing with exorbitant costs in producing large scale events that draw 1.7 million individuals that is free for everyone in the world to attend.
    [20:16:33]
    Karl, sure! I would love that!
    [20:16:41]
    LD – glad to hear the term strategic essentialism used
    [20:17:03]
    @jarcastillo, Thanks Karl. I’m surprised that 1987 was the one that was mentioned. I’m not too naive and understand that Skyy Vodka etc brings tons of money which is needed to be able to have these types of events so perhaps its up to us to contextualize it for others (and now with social media) to make sure that more informed people are attending this protests/parties/parades…
    [20:22:42]
    any suggestions for readings on the critiques of HRC and Pride?
    [20:23:57]
    @meganbigelow queer critiques of marriage here http://www.beyondmarriage.org/
    [20:24:09]
    thank you!
    [20:24:12]
    @meganbigelow this too http://www.againstequality.org/
    [20:24:34]
    @meganbigelow and also dean spade’s work
    [20:24:49]
    @jarcastillo, Thanks @meganbigelow
    [20:25:51]
    Woo hoo!
    [20:26:27] Questions asked again!
    [20:26:31] yay!
    [20:26:40]
    @meganbigelow you’re very welcome, lots of the work there & spade is a lawyer, makes points so well
    [20:27:00] Feel free to email Jack, or tweet about more work on sex work
    [20:28:32] thank you!

    Reply

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