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One thought on “First In-Class Thread: About Cities and the Bodies within Them

  1. Jen Jack Gieseking Post author

    Here’s a transcript of the chat history (on the live stream video from the class). Keep the conversation going here by adding your comments below!

    [18:38:37] Glad I could still see this online!
    [18:42:59] Don’t miss out! If you want to contribute to the conversation, by asking questions or talking about the reading. We have hashtag #CLAGSqNY, and I am working with the CLAGS twitter feed currently. I will try to relay your questions. — Kalle (@CLAGSny). You can also ask questions here, of course.
    [18:47:56] ^ Great!!! ☺
    [18:48:23]
    what do we tweet to? just #CLAGSqNY or @CLAGSny
    [18:49:16] Just add the hashtag #CLAGSqNY to your tweet!
    [18:50:39] I believe there’s experiences of (in)visibility simillars at São Paulo by you describe at NYC.
    [18:53:55]
    Should we place all questions on twitter or to this live chat?
    [18:54:23] If you ask on twitter, you have an audience of 100m+ people 🙂
    [18:54:41] That’s true!
    [18:54:54]
    so what’s the purpose of this live chat?
    [18:55:00]
    Ok, cool. I’ll post there and try to frame my question within the twitter word limit
    [18:55:24]
    Useful tool for following a Twitter Chat (more IM style): http://tweetchat.com/room/CLAGSqNY
    [18:55:27]
    I think this live chat is for those who don’t have twitters
    [18:56:01]
    got it. what if you just want to outline a list of topics explored — not just pose a question?
    [18:56:15]
    Some of this conversation is making me think of how the Abraham text mentions that Jacobs/Baldwin identify the city as being concerned with connections beyond the family, specifically on interdependence not based on biological family. So then I wonder how queer folks may be connected to the city, and New York specifically, for that connection to chosen family and interdependence, outside of the traditional family. (LD)
    [18:56:44]
    absolutely!
    [18:57:18]
    that is a good point about idealizing city life as a safe-queer space, but does that mean that we should give up on other, more rural, smaller areas and in making them safer for queer people?
    [18:57:42]
    I posted on twitter, but just to share here: In reading D’Emilio, I’m interested in how the notion of ‘the grid’ as a response to capitalism and urban planning relates to he creation or location of these gay neighborhoods, in which, as we read, gay-identity was a response to economic changes in household
    [18:57:55]
    I don’t think so, but I think it might be why some queer folks are “attached” or drawn to urban centers… (LD)
    [18:58:02]
    i think so, it is not the idea of the urban space is “safer” for queer people
    [18:58:25]
    safer no way!
    [18:58:33]
    ^I agree
    [19:01:10]
    when we talk about ‘queer folks’ we don’t talk just for homosexuals persons, no?
    [19:02:10]
    correct, “queer folks” includes many nonnormative identities
    [19:02:23]
    right
    [19:02:31]
    right, anyone that does not adhere to any sense of (hetero)normativity
    [19:02:36]
    or even homonormativity
    [19:03:35]
    Yes, or even homonormativity, like a ‘gay way of life’
    [19:03:35]
    queer mobilities! good point
    [19:03:39] Who are you peeps watching this livestream of #CLAGSqNY right now? Are you in NYC or not?
    [19:03:50] NYC
    [19:03:57]
    I definitely see queerness as tied to some opposition to heteronormativity, so I’m excited to hear more opinions on how that plays into this discussion… (LD)
    [19:04:05]
    I am In Berlin, Germany
    [19:04:07]
    NYC (LD)
    [19:04:08]
    I’m in the suburbs outside of NYC
    [19:04:19]
    CT
    [19:04:26]
    I am in São Paulo, Brazil
    [19:04:45]
    I’m currently in Providence, Ri for school but from Baltimore, MD
    [19:04:46]
    :O
    [19:04:50]
    I am Brazilian, heheh, but I am doing my PhD in Germany
    [19:04:58]
    wow, this is really international too. :))
    [19:05:14]
    From Sao Paulo, here, too
    [19:05:21]
    Auckland NZ!
    [19:05:23]
    I’m in St. Louis, MO for school but from Baltimore. Will be going to NYC for the summer
    [19:05:30]
    and the chat of twitter is very bad for me…
    [19:05:44]
    how
    [19:05:50]
    I’ll be going to NYC for the summer as well to intern (the guy from Baltimore)
    [19:07:53]
    Agree, i don’t think Emillio claim is that homosexual acts began to define identity post world war 2
    [19:08:24]
    In front of the camera nooooo!
    [19:08:31]
    sorry, i believe Emillio IS make the claim that homosexual acts began to define identity post WWII
    [19:08:51]
    person from baltimore where are you interning? haha also are you at school at brown?
    [19:09:11]
    i’m in NYC too
    [19:09:12]
    agree very much with whats being said now
    [19:10:03] What research are people here on the chat involved with, if any? Or what brings you to this event? 🙂
    [19:10:38] I’m an architecture student interested in the LGBT issues with space
    [19:10:52]
    really agree with this, and have been thinking a TON about “homonationalism” lately and how much my views of the rainbow flag have changed in the last 15 years (ie since I was 15). (LD)
    [19:10:58]
    My research is about South Asian queer spaces in New York City, specifically how South Asian American queer youth are able to navigate these spaces, and I’ll be doing ethnographic fieldwork this summer with SALGA-NYC (South Asian Lesbian and Gay Association in NYC)
    [19:11:23]
    well Emilio is stating that financial independence allowed people to live their lives as as individuals and take on a “gay” identity since they didn’t have a financial dependency on their family… which makes me think about a text I just read on “tacit subjectivities” among Latino/Dominican immigrants to NY who for the most part depend on their families and therefore must maintain their sexual identities as unspoken
    [19:11:29]
    (South Asian research mentioned above is an undergraduate research project)
    [19:11:41]
    wow!
    [19:11:49]
    very interesting project
    [19:12:00]
    Thanks! I’m so excited about it!
    [19:12:01]
    I’m an artist and writer and much of my practice right now centers around affective queer space, chosen family, collective living in urban spaces, etc. Completing my MFA in Fine Arts this month. (LD)
    [19:12:13]
    I guess Emilio is talking about a gay urban community post II WW and not particularly about homosexual identity… Anyway it is a little different the way he sees that, considering for example the approach of foucault, linking homosexual identity to medical knowledge
    [19:12:29] it would be neat if you all would give your twitter handles or so too, when describing your projects or so… that way, you could find peers interested in helping you out 🙂
    [19:12:40] true, twitter handles please!
    [19:12:47] or whatever you prefer 🙂
    [19:13:52] @jarcastillo -> researching queer caribbean literature and cultural production
    [19:13:52]
    I’m interested in the online learning experience; I’m working on early cinema and the emergence of lesbian representation but also interested in new queer cinema, queer documentary and more @smp0tter
    [19:14:03]
    @blackandredeye (LD)
    [19:14:21]
    @vswag11 (South Asian queer spaces)
    [19:14:27]
    i’m a queer artist (trained in photography, but moving towards more interdisciplinary work), interested in what queerness means within aesthetics/affect theory, and how my own queerness comes into both my work and my life, starting my MFA next fall, twitter: @meganbigelow
    [19:14:31]
    I am an anthropologist, studying now queer mobilities of brazilian people in a both national and transnational level
    [19:15:17]
    thinking of the phrase by Marxs, “Capitalism sow the seeds of its own destruction” in relation to capitalism bringing about gay identity to then commodify that identity so that the commonly purported notion of gay identity is an a way a falsified or inauthentic, aka destroyed identity
    [19:15:41]
    LD, cool to meet another artist here 🙂 your work sounds interesting!
    [19:15:52]
    -(mb)
    [19:16:19]
    What was the name of the book that the professor just mentioned? My internet isn’t very good
    [19:16:45]
    MB, you too! just followed you on twitter, keep in touch! your work does too!
    [19:16:47]
    I wish we could have temporary usernames here. I’m getting confused with all the anons.
    [19:17:01]
    Malcolm Rio here @rio_tweets
    [19:17:10]
    Techniques of Pleasure or Privatization of Public Space?
    [19:17:12]
    no identities, we are nomadic, heheh
    [19:17:12]
    @brunopuccinelli: I do researches about an emergence of sexual identities in central spaces of São Paulo city and this relation with an idea of outskirts (BP). I am anthropologist too.
    [19:18:27]
    what do you mean by emergence of sexual identities?
    [19:18:42]
    why insisting so much in identity politics?
    [19:20:15]
    yeh, brooklyn boihood!
    [19:20:39]
    sexual identities – relevant, important, but we should overcome identitarian models…
    [19:21:15]
    No, I don’t insisting, but there are emic deifnitions about this, about an idea of an space with sexuality, and this space don’t close an identity, there are so much realtions and situations that change this point of view.
    [19:21:23]
    (BP)
    [19:22:26]
    I think we should read josé esteban munoz “disidentifications” and “cruising utopias”
    [19:22:28]
    Lefferts Gardens!
    [19:22:34]
    sorry, gotta rep
    [19:22:41]
    But, anywhere, there are forces who try do define a space with an sexual identity, by the way.
    [19:22:42]
    yes, Lefferts and Crown Heights!
    [19:22:46]
    queer in queens here
    [19:23:40]
    I thought the Grosz reading was interesting on how to think about bodies and spaces/cities and how identity might work in her model (SusanP @smp0tter)
    [19:23:47] Don’t forget to like CLAGS on Facebook too, so that you get updates about our other events coming up! 🙂 http://on.fb.me/15aqEeT
    [19:23:59] that is why I was asking what s/he understood as emergent identities… because how we construct identities has a lot to do with more than identity politics
    [19:24:29] You should also check in, even if you’re only digitally connected to us, you’re still part of the lil’ but growing CLAGS community 🙂
    [19:24:56] Yes, there are so many ways to talk about identities.
    [19:26:23]
    are the readings sent to our e-mails?
    [19:26:55] there was an email with info on how to access readings sent to all who registered
    [19:27:09] Readings are available here: http://bit.ly/12oqj0R
    [19:27:18]
    also, meet Jasmina, my colleague from CLAGS!
    [19:27:23] 🙂
    [19:27:28] HEY Jasmina!
    [19:27:37] hi
    [19:27:44] Hi, Jasmina!
    [19:27:45]
    I see you!
    [19:28:04]
    Hello! Is there a way that we can get a log-in/username so everyone isn’t anonymous? (Susan)
    [19:28:51] If you are at the CUNY GC (which provides our service), you can login above and then your name will be visible. Otherwise, you can’t 🙁 sorry!
    [19:28:52] there was an error when I clicked on the readings… did anyone else have this problem? (I ended up finding them through my uni site)
    [19:29:27] it should be a dropbox link not the link on the blog
    [19:29:58] [isadora frança] susan and everibody: maybe we could put our names in [] before writing here
    [19:30:00]
    She was definitely arguing the ways in which it COULD work, or sometimes did work, yes. (LD)
    [19:30:13]
    I have the same problem, i can download the readings
    [19:30:30]
    when i click to see the reading
    [19:30:43] Checking for link now.
    [19:30:47]
    (for the readings)
    [19:31:19] you mean, like, everywhere?
    [19:31:29]
    🙂
    [19:31:29] Here are the readings: http://bit.ly/1319s89
    [19:31:35] (kaciano): isadora, how are you? i am here as well!
    [19:32:00]
    (bruno puccinelli): Hi, Isadora!
    [19:32:25]
    [isadora] hi bruno, hi kaciano
    [19:32:39]
    [isadora frança] I was thinking about the differences about urban space, ‘gay market’ and safe or unsafe places. Talking from Sao Paulo, it seems really different the way urban sexual communities take place here, there’s nothing like a “ghetto” for example, as far as i can see. nor the spaces are so marked in this sense as they seems to be in other cities, where things seems to be more segmented. and maybe it has something to do with the way we see queer identities and capitalims in the city. anyway i guess it is a little simplistic to address everything to capitalism: how does it explain the experience of real people in real different places related to different inserction in a capitalist system? [sorry about the poor english, trying really hard]
    [19:32:45]
    (kaciano): thank you, karl!
    [19:33:07]
    good point, isadora! (LD)
    [19:33:14]
    very interesting what jack said just a minute ago – how queer youth of color choose to hang out in times square nowadays. for someone who lives in nyc, this is a fascinating piece of information about queer geographies as they relate to capitalism in particular: here is times square, one of the most visually decadent monuments to capitalism, riddled with tourists and consumerism etc., AND currently, queer youth of color find it to be one of the most freeing spaces to hang out it in nyc. don’t have much of an analysis here myself, just find it fascinating, and hope they come back to this in the class discussion
    [19:37:13]
    I’d definitely like to talk more about how I feel more likely to talk about ableism in queer/feminist circles… (LD)
    [19:41:18]
    As a side note, I feel that people may find the Left Forum at Pace University this June interesting
    [19:42:47]
    as a space to bring up the issues being brought up
    [19:42:54]
    in this class
    [19:43:18]
    But maybe we can think about what queers may have in common as the ability to detach from heteronormativity/homonormativity? As a positive. (LD)
    [19:44:28]
    (Susan) Nice way to put what queer might mean as a kind of anti-identitarian positionality
    [19:44:52]
    but do we truly detach from heteronormativity?
    [19:45:45]
    (MB) yeah, LD, i’ve think a lot about how to define ‘queerness’ (or if it even can be defined), esp. when asked ‘what does queer mean’ by my students
    [19:45:46]
    well when you think about queer as a politics, possibly? or “we” try? (LD)
    [19:45:57]
    or in a way do we generalize our identity as a binary in opposition to heterosexuality, in which we communicate in a hetero normative fashion
    [19:45:59]
    thought*
    [19:46:37]
    [isadora] what do you think about the opposition queer space x straight space? where are the lignes separating each other?
    [19:46:38]
    communicate our identity in a heteronormative fashion
    [19:46:41]
    I think being queer means having the ability to be flexible and negotiate our “identity” positionality in a more self-aware way than others (I’m thinking of Gloria Anzaldua’s idea of the new mestiza consciousness in the borderlands)
    [19:47:36]
    I guess maybe a more positive way to put it could be that queer identities don’t use heteronormative structures as the starting point? Far more complicated than one sentence though, obviously. (LD)
    [19:49:30]
    LD I think that’s a very good point about not using heteronormative structures to define our queerness as a starting point since that would simply replicate a binary and otherness
    [19:49:52]
    exactly (LD)
    [19:50:08]
    I agree, but I do feel we often communicate through a language embedded with hetero-preference, and creates and either/or or us vs. them discourse, which indirectly disregards the bisexual, the pansexual or the transgender who may fluctuate between the these two structures (Rio)
    [19:50:13]
    (MB) for me, queerness is very much politicized. LD, great point about the starting point/positivity—i like that. i’ve been thinking lately we need to deprivilege/destructure existences, and, for me, queerness is a big part of that. thinking about not being “in opposition” to something specific, but rather “for” another way..”another world is possible” type of thinking
    [19:50:15]
    (bruno) what means “queer identities”?
    [19:51:23]
    this seminar is very insightful. so thankful for it.
    [19:51:24]
    and this either/or us vs. them is brought about through that issue of using a language that is a heteroseuxal structure in which we stand as an “other” to the heterosexual
    [19:51:55]
    totally, MB. I’m all for resistance but in the end am more interested in thinking about queer identities as positives…to be more productive with it, etc. (LD)
    [19:52:42]
    (@jarcastillo) MB I think that’s what Michael Warner discusses in his intro to Fear of a Queer Planet, of looking at queerness as another way of being and not just an “other”
    [19:53:23]
    (MB) also, tied into disability studies…marking bodies as “able” and then “disabled” also is a form of othering and talking about ‘disabled’ bodies as lacking something relative to able bodies. i think we need to start thinking about things as varied forms (and i try to do this in my artwork a lot)
    [19:54:02]
    @jarcastillo, I really enjoyed reading his article w/ Lauren Berlant, “Sex In Public” for these sorts of points too
    [19:54:45]
    (LD)
    [19:55:26]
    (MB) also thinking about wanting to change the rhetoric around “coming out”, in my ideal world we would just talk about “coming into (whatever) form” our sexualities will take, rather than coming “out”
    [19:56:21]
    (@jarcastillo) Berlant’s article is an excellent way of also discussing “visibility” as in sexual visibility and contrasting it with how public spaces are sanitized (read de-sexualized)
    [19:56:31]
    (MB) thanks jarcastillo, for the michael warner
    [19:56:50]
    true! (LD)
    [19:57:45]
    (@meganbigelow) or even, thinking about sexuality as processual, and not so forced into form
    [19:58:25]
    [isadora] ok, but every space is composed of uses and contra-uses. i mean, maybe we could take a look about how the heteronorma is fail, how it is not overwhelming of all the experiences we have in some space
    [19:59:01]
    (susan:) @MB your comment re coming into (cf out) reminded me of Tillet Wright’s Ted talk fifty shades of gay
    [19:59:37]
    (@jarcastillo) MB I was just discussing the narratives of “coming out” with my students yesterday in relation to “tacit subjectivities” and the notion that “coming out” is a very U.S./Western ideal and there are other ways of living our sexualities…. a person in reading I had my students do said that he never felt the need to come out because he was always open and honest about his sexual preference and his sexuality was normal to him so to “come out” would be a way of saying there was something “out of the ordinary” that had to be pointed out
    [20:00:47] Once again, here’s the link to the readings: http://bit.ly/1319s89
    [20:01:15] Love how the issue of the stress on aesthetics in urban renewal. It’s currently an issue the new generation of architects in architecture school are questioning about the previous generations of architects (Rio)
    [20:01:22] What other events would you folks be interested in? If you could wish for whatever you want?
    [20:01:33]
    (that we could do here at CLAGS, I mean)
    [20:01:55] (@meganbigelow) i’m really into this beauty discussion
    [20:02:27]
    (@meganbigelow) Karl, thanks for the reading link
    [20:03:27]
    [isadora] yes, castillo, and not everybody can ‘come out’. some of us are ‘out’ since we are not corresponding to gender estereotypes, since childhood…
    [20:03:33]
    (@meganbigelow)@jarcastillo that’s interesting about your students, i was talking with one of my students who came out as queer to me recently about similar things, she said that she feels like she is a (her name), not “a queer”
    [20:03:40]
    @Kar – how about diff movie events?
    [20:03:45]
    (@meganbigelow) YES isadora
    [20:03:45]
    Well that’s one thing that queers are attached to, is looking to the past? (LD)
    [20:05:07]
    Karl who can I contact (via email) regarding a certificate of completion?
    [20:05:34]
    agree with this comment! (LD)
    [20:05:38]
    love the Gail Dine-ness @rio_tweets
    [20:05:55]
    *Dines-ness
    [20:07:17] Send any questions to info@clags.org!
    [20:07:27]
    Does anyone want me to forward question(s) to the group?
    [20:07:42] (@jarcastillo) @meganbigelow ultimately “queer” becomes an umbrella term that ideally seeks to dismantle identity as being static…. I’ve also discussed being “cultural intelligible” specially since people might not have given much thought to what it means to be queer or has a negative association with it
    [20:08:28]
    (@meganbigelow) JC penney ad also makes me think of the Target ad with a child model with down’s syndrome too, and the largely positive reception that received, also re: capitalism context
    [20:08:54]
    If there’s a way to forward along our comments to the group, that might be interesting! (LD)
    [20:09:23] Definitely, I’ll make sure that this conversation is mentioned before we end today, and it will be archived with the video!
    [20:12:45] i vote yes @rio_tweets
    [20:12:59] There you go, I just brought it up!
    [20:13:03] thanks!
    [20:13:05]
    Thanks Karl!
    [20:13:07]
    THANKS!
    [20:13:19]
    (@meganbigelow) Karl, I’d definitely be very interested in seeing events with queer artists, speakers, presenting their work
    [20:13:46]
    Possibly for next time, there could be a projector that would display the twitter feed and this live chat 🙂
    [20:13:56]
    in the room.
    [20:14:05]
    (@meganbigelow) i think the projector idea is great!
    [20:14:28]
    (@meganbigelow) especially thinking about space, intersecting spaces 🙂
    [20:15:49]
    (@jarcastillo) But we should also not forget who was at Stonewall and it wasn’t just “white-middle-class individuals)… and while gentrification has definitely played a very important role in queering spaces, we’ve always had other spaces such as EV and LES as queer sites…. I’m thinking of Keith Haring moving to those neighborhoods searching for a multi-ethnic/sexual community away from what was happening in the Village
    [20:17:02]
    ✌^true, true. I def agree!
    [20:17:09]
    Or maybe it’s a lack of thinking back far enough? Considering a longer history? (LD)
    [20:17:25]
    longer history – of oppressions? (LD)
    [20:17:35]
    I heard it was a black drag queen named Martha threw the first shoe at Stonewall
    [20:18:13]
    (@jarcastillo) LD – YES! Definitely! Sometimes we tend to have a very myopic understanding/view of history…
    [20:18:31]
    jajaja 🙂 yes she threw her shoe!
    [20:19:04]
    YES to that specificity (LD)
    [20:19:20]
    hallelujah @rio_tweets
    [20:20:02]
    (@jarcastillo) About one of the individuals at Stonewall…
    [20:20:04]
    http://queerhistory.blogspot.com/2011/07/sylvia-rivera.html
    [20:21:13]
    (@meganbigelow)LD, i think it’s definitely important to look at how things flow through multigenerational histories, especially things like trauma, wealth/capital, health, oppression, feeling-states, and how these things flow through both filial networks and non (genetically) filial lineages/netowrks
    [20:22:00]
    MB, good point, I’d like to research/talk more about those things, historically
    [20:22:02]
    (LD)
    [20:22:54]
    as in, how that collapsing actually happens (LD)
    [20:23:31]
    (MB) yes, the collapse
    [20:23:38]
    thank you @rio_tweets
    [20:23:54]
    thanks folks! LD = @blackandredeye
    [20:23:57]
    thank you @kacyjonnes
    [20:24:00]
    (Susan) signing off now, thanks
    [20:24:05] Thank you all for hanging out with us here tonight! See you next week! Please join in with the conversation on Twitter!
    [20:24:06] (@meganbigelow) awesome discussion everyone, hope to see you all next week!
    [20:24:08]
    [isadora] thank you all! see you next wednesday!
    [20:24:51]
    (@jarcastillo) thanks everyone

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